


Lessons on Selfishness

by Murder_Schmurder



Series: Moral dilemmas [2]
Category: Sanders Sides (Web Series)
Genre: ALL! SIDES! ARE! SYMPATHETIC!, Gen, Spoilers for Putting Others First, Sympathetic Deceit Sanders, Sympathetic Morality | Patton Sanders, character exploration, christianity's impact on morality, discussions on morality, i hate those tags but! hopefully it'll help people find this if they need it, through moral debates
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2020-05-02
Updated: 2020-05-02
Packaged: 2021-03-02 03:54:30
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 1
Words: 2,578
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/23964967
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Murder_Schmurder/pseuds/Murder_Schmurder
Summary: Morality tries to understand himself. But he can't do it alone.
Relationships: None for now
Series: Moral dilemmas [2]
Series URL: https://archiveofourown.org/series/1727728
Comments: 8
Kudos: 93





	Lessons on Selfishness

**Author's Note:**

> HO BOY WHAT AN EPISODE HUH
> 
> I won't lie i spent a whole lot of it tying their different arguments to different philosophers because I'm a nerd so here you go
> 
> It builds off the first fic in the series, but all you really need to know is that Logan and Janus have been meeting up for regular debates on the nature of ethics.

Patton took a deep breath and knocked on the door in front of him. He heard a scuffle behind it, someone hurrying across the room. 

“Yes, Logan, I’m ready, just give me a - “ Deceit - no, Janus, looked up and paused, clearly shocked. “What are you doing here?”

Patton winced. Blunt as always. 

“I… wanted to talk. Logan said you’d been having debates and I… maybe... “ 

Dec- Janus sighed, pinching the bridge of his nose. 

“Patton, I do not have time for your internal crisis right now. Me and Logan are supposed to meet up and unlike  _ some _ , I am not willing to drop everything to help you with your little crisis of morality.” 

Patton winced. Right. That was. A thing.

“Of course,” he forced out, stepping to the side once he realized he was blocking the door. “But maybe… some time? later? I - “ he swallowed. “I would like your viewpoint. A lot. I’m not going to - I’m not going to just become all loosey-goosey with my morals - “

“Ah, and here I thought you wanted to plan a hostile takeover of the movie company to get Thomas the role.” 

There was a brief pause.

“...no,” Patton said hesitantly. Janus groaned. 

“God, you’ve really got it bad. This is unmanageable. Look, we’ll set up a time, okay? Now, i have some self-care to get to, if you don’t mind.” 

“Sure,” Patton smiled, relieved, before sinking out into his room.

He had some preparation to do.

  
  
  


\-----------------

  
  


Janus knocked on Patton’s door, this time. 

When Patton opened the door, he winced slightly at the obvious tension radiating off of Janus. 

“Shall we get to it, then? “ Janus asked, gesturing towards the main space. Patton nodded. Either of their rooms would be unfit for this, and he didn’t want to drag Logan into this. 

He followed Janus into the space, each taking a seat.

The silence stretched for an uncomfortable second before Janus took a deep breath.

“Alright, this is how this works, since I doubt open debate is something you have much experience in. First off, we’re not here to change anyone’s core being. this is debate, not a verbal battle. Second, I won’t have any… frogging out, or whatever. If it gets too much, say something.” He paused to lock eyes with Patton. “Seriously. I will know if you lie about it.”

Patton gave a thumbs up.

“Last… just… What do you want from me, here? Because honestly if this is gonna be some kind of therapy for your hurt feelings - “

“No, no, not at all!” Patton hurried to interrupt. “I just… I’ve been confused. A lot.” he twined his fingers together in his lap. “Since that whole… incident. I want to grow. I want to change.” 

Janus’ slitted eye narrowed further. 

“Why? to be able to manipulate them more effectively?” 

Okay, he deserved that one. Didn’t mean it wasn’t painful.

“No,” he said, trying to keep his voice steady. “I don’t - you know I don’t - “

“You don’t do it on purpose, I know, you self-righteous - yes. Doesn’t change the fact that it might help you do that more.”

“I want to be better,” Patton stated, not responding to what Janus had said. He couldn’t. Not right now. “I want to be better for Thomas. His life is more complex, and I haven’t been growing and changing with him. It’s scary, and hard, but I need to do it anyway. By listening to you all. By not making all the decisions.” he fidgeted a bit more, looking to the carpet. “I’ve been - reading up a bit. On the whole - philosophy bit. Logan recommended some books.” 

“Well, shit. guess you can teach an old monkey to fly, after all,” Janus muttered, settling himself further into the chair. “So, let me guess? You found moralistic altruism, saw “the good of others before the good of yourself” and called it a day?” His tone was only slightly mocking. Patton counted it as a win.

“Actually…” he cleared his throat. “I did look into that and while yes, it was very true, I also read up on deontology quite a bit. It didn’t quite sit well with me, doing things with no care to the source of the thought. Even if you donate a million dollars to charity, that’s not moral if your net worth is hundreds of billions, yes?” 

“Don’t need to tell me,” Janus huffed, leaning forward in his seat with an interested gleam in his eyes. “But yes, deontology. Remind me, Patton - how do you know that an action is morally good, if one does not look to the consequences at all?” 

“Uuuh…” Patton blanked for a second, frantically trying to remember what he’d read before shaking his head and instead looking to his heart. “Because it’s… just something you know? What’s good or evil?” 

“Patton, I know you are smarter than that… somewhere. Do you really think evil people just do evil things on purpose? Did Endgame tell you nothing?” 

“Are we really using marvel as our measurement for moral dilemmas here?” Patton couldn’t help but point out. He wasn’t the biggest fan, but he knew Roman had Many Opinions on it. 

Clearly Janus did as well, if his frustrated huff was anything to go by.

“You know what I mean. Do you really think we would be having this discussion if it was that clear cut?” 

“Ugh, fine, no,” Patton admitted. He’d tried that. Simple answers were a trap - one he was not going to fall into again. That’s why he was here, after all. 

“Precisely! If every human had a similar “core” knowledge, we would not be here. It is either learned, or something else. And if it is learned, then it is due to the consequences of those actions.” Janus said, sounding very smug. Patton blinked.

“wait, what?”

Janus was excited now, Patton could tell: Leaning forward in his chair, gesturing. It was heartwarming, in a way. 

“It is the fundamental problem of the deontological world view. Our only way of deciding if an action is good or not is to look at the consequences. One cannot simply go by intention alone, because the intention always, always considers the consequences.”

Patton thought for a moment. It wasn’t a bad point, but...

“But surely it can inform your moral dilemmas? Wasn’t it you that said it’s not that clear cut?” He thought, smiling when Janus huffed out a laugh.

“Turning my own words against me, huh? you’re learning.” Those words should not have made Patton this happy.

“I’m not sure if that’s a compliment or not,” he shot back, bouncing slightly in his seat.

“No comment. Either way, this is what I brought up the very first time we discussed! Universal rules do not work, because there is an infinite number of scenarios where it’s unacceptable. As I said about Kant - “ 

Oh, he couldn’t resist.

“Whoops! Goodnight everybody!”

Janus stopped dead, giving Patton a look that was equal parts suffering and satisfaction.

“I cannot believe you are actually like this. As I was saying: He proved that a universal rule is not feasible: therefore, one cannot only go on the intention alone.”

Patton nodded.

“Alright, alright. But that means that moral altruism and utilitarianism as a whole still stands. Doing things for the good of others, to cause net happiness gain, is still a moral thing to do. And I know what Logan said about effective Altruism, and while I do see the point, I just…”

He paused. That gross feeling was back in his stomach again - like a cold, squirmy ball of  _ bad _ , of should-haves and do-better and  _ uselessness _ . 

“You just?” Janus prompted, and Patton started back into reality. He cast about for words

“uuuh, it comes down to intention, yeah? And - and I know that goes against your fancy philosophers but that’s not the important part here, okay? This is Thomas, and he - he needs to do good.” The words felt wrong, but he had no time to correct them. They were there, squirming in the air between them.

Patton sucked in a breath and looked down at his lap again. Stupid. He was right back where he started. This was all useless. What good was he if he couldn’t just  _ move on _ ? 

Janus hummed, sounding thoughtful. Patton looked up, hesitantly, and found Janus nodding.

“Hmmm. perhaps another analogy would work, then. You are familiar with choir breathing, yes? With everyone singing the same note indefinitely, because the mass of people can keep the note going while each individual takes turns stopping to breathe?”

Patton nodded.

“Yes, but I don’t see how Thomas’ singing skills - “

Janus interrupted him, continuing to speak as he stared Patton down - as if willing him to grasp it. 

“The same theory applies to activism and altruism. If you run out of breath you cannot keep the tune - or the fight - going, but if you lean on your friends - “

“You can keep going indefinitely?” Patton chansed, and Janus’ nod brought a slight smile back to his face. He could see it, sort of. You had to pause to breathe. That was just human nature. 

“Yes. And isn’t that what you are all about? leaning on your friends? working together for the greater good? Part of that is trusting others to keep doing good, even when you need to take a break.” Patton could hear the eyeroll in Janus’ voice, but it didn’t matter. He got it. Thomas didn’t have to do all the good, all the time, because then he’d run out of breath and be caught coughing and probably hit a wall, he could see it. 

Taking a break was okay. It helped everyone in the long run. 

Even as he thought that, the cold painful thing moved to his chest, filling his lungs with regret and doubt so thick he could almost taste it. He curled a bit closer in on himself.

“That is true… I just... “

A warm hand settled on his shoulder. Patton took in a sharp breath, but the hand didn’t move. Just squeezed slightly, staying where it was.

“What do you just, Patton? How does this make you feel?” Janus was digging now, Patton could feel it - trying to get to the root of it all. Usually Patton would be defensive, would not trust him to see this.

But he was trying to trust. He had to lean on his friends. 

That included Janus.

And so, with a great heaving breath, he let the cold squirming thing in his chest out, speaking without thought as he tried to give it shape.

“It sounds good. All of it. And I know that, in here. But… As soon as I think about actually doing it…” He sighed, curling his arms around his stomach. “It feel bad. I don’t - I don’t know why. If morality - if goodness comes from inside, but I can’t figure out what that inside IS, can I even make moral decisions? If I don’t understand why I’m doing this, can I even truly be good? It’s like - it’s like every time I think of taking a break, of resting, of doing things for Thomas, it rears up. Like that would be useless, and wrong, and - and sinful.” He hated that word, so much. But it was what he felt. He was not hiding his feelings, anymore. He let them sit in the stark light of Janus’ judgement, and he felt smaller than an ant.

“Patton… have you considered that it might not actually come from inside you?” 

Janus’ words were soft. Patton blinked, blinked some more once he noticed the tears in his eyes, and then looked up.

“What?” He winced at the way his voice broke halfway through the word. Janus didn’t comment, just ran his thumb absently over Patton’s neck as he spoke.

“Morality isn’t necessarily something we’re born with. Empathy, and feelings, yes, but morality differs from society to society. Just as we thought we were straight, and that Christoffer Columbus was a cool guy, we also thought that certain things were good because we’d been taught that way. We just… didn’t realize. In Western society, especially, a lot of our moral values circle around self-sacrifice. Suffering is seen as morally good in itself. Feeling good is a sin. It isn’t you, Patton. It isn’t Thomas. It’s society itself trying to impose these things on you.”

Patton was silent for a moment, speechless. He was about to respond when he felt Janus push slightly against him, take another breath, and keep talking - words much more measured.

“And… Listen, I know this is controversial, but it is also most certainly something affected by… religion. By christianity, specifically. I’m not - I’m not going to go into the whole protestantism thing, but. Listen, there is a very specific approach that many preachers, especially here, in the US, have, about - about selfishness, and sacrifice, and all that. Like - you have to be absolutely pure, no selfishness, no nothing. Or you don’t - you don’t deserve rest, and good things. And… I couldn’t help but hear that from you, earlier.”

Patton swallowed. He had said that, hadn’t he?

“I - you know this is gonna be so controversial, right? No way we can bring this particular lesson up in a video,” he laughed, no humor to his voice. 

The hand on his neck squeezed slightly in reproach.

  
“This isn’t for a video, Patton. I don’t - I don’t think this is something you’re doing by  _ choice _ . You’re not that manipulative. It’s just - things we learn, things around us, they affect how we see the world. How we see ourselves. Maybe - Maybe this way of thinking is affecting you?”

Patton swallowed. Tried to think. 

“Maybe,” he said, voice thin. Maybe it was.

The silence stretched. It didn’t feel uncomfortable now, though. It just - it just was.

At least until Janus broke the silence.

“Of course, capitalism itself imposes an onus on us to always be productive, so I can see how that also affects you,” His voice was full of forced cheer, and Patton couldn’t have stopped the laugh that bubbled up if he’d wanted to. 

“Why does it always come down to trying to raze society with you?” Was all he could think to say, voice tinged with faint amusement.

Janus leaned back at that and struck his hands out in a dramatic pose, voice alive once again.

“Because capitalism sucks, Patton!” 

Patton laughed, slightly wet, and sat up properly again. 

“Duh, but doesn’t societal rules still apply? They are there for a reason, after all. And living in a society is itself a good thing, you’ve gotta agree.” The words flowed easily from him, now - this was familiar ground. 

“See, now we’re back to fitting into society again - “ Janus seemed to agree, if only judging by his voice and the comfort with which he settled into the argument. Patton laughed and shook his head.

“Nu-uh!” 

“Yeah-uh”

“Nu-uh!”

  
“Yeah - this is ridiculous,” Janus muttered, but Patton could see the smile tugging at his lips, the way he resettled more comfortably into his chair. A warm glow filled him, butting out the cold squirming sense of wrong he was now starting to understand. Starting to unpick.

Patton smiled, and listened as Janus launched into a new rant on societal ills.

Maybe this could work, after all. It would take time, and effort, and a lot of leaning on his friends. Leaning on Janus.

But friendship, Patton could do. 

This, he could do.

**Author's Note:**

> Thank you to the discord. You nutlings are the only reason this exists ;)


End file.
